jhv1blz5 wrote: The article validated SOA as an IT architecture paradigm that can be leveraged in many ways. Taking data storage, scalability and application performance to a nifty level using SOA Application Grid infrastructure will no doubt enhance data and application performance on Oracle architecture platforms, it also has the promise of a cost effective and efficient IT delivery model. The very benefits of SOA.
Java on the desktop today A discussion on the future of Java on desktop is going on right now at JavaLobby . A anonymous poster (rba1988) asks the following question: “I was just wondering what you people think of the future of Java standalone/desktop applications. What're your opinions on this? Do you think people will continue developing pure Java applications that you won't find on web pages but on the desktop. Or do you think that Java programming are really meant for applet development and not for application development?”
The readers of this respected online forum are actively participating in this discussion and, as usual they try to protect their ten year old pet called Java. Some say that Java is improving on the desktop and has good opportunities there. The reason is simple and prosaic: Java Swing puts bread on their tables. They do not want changes. They do not want to learn another language or tool. They can do everything with Java Swing.
C’mon guys, get real. IMO, unless Sun will do a major rework, Java Swing will slowly but surely go away: first, from the Web applications arena, and in several years from the desktop. Sun Microsystems has been treating Java on the desktop as Cinderella way too long. Now Sun is way behind. So who's way ahead? Adobe with Flex 2 on the Web and Apollo on desktop and Microsoft with their WPF/E.
Swing is very very powerful tool, but it's very expensive. I'm talking about real-world applications not mortgage calculators. You do not pay for a Java license, but you pay high salaries to people who develop in Swing. They write tons and tons of code. In addition to this, IDEs generate tons and tons of boilerplate code. Someone has to read and understand all this.
What about deployment? HelloWorld with one text field and a button won't run on your PC unless you've installed the JRE that weighs 16MB (Sun is trying to make it lighter for the Web ).
Yesterday, I was creating an application for my client in Flex 2 that runs in Flash Player 9. All of a sudden, some big shot came in and a quick demo was required. No, the big shot can't stop by my desk and wants to see this Web application in action on his laptop in his office. No problem, because I was not using Swing. I was using Flex 2, so I copied a couple of files to a webapps directory under Tomcat, and emailed him the link. He clicked on the link, and a message “Flash Player 9 is required. Do you want to install it?” poped on his laptop, he pressed OK and 5 seconds later, he was working with my application, which was working with Java messaging feed on the server side. Do not trust me? Click on this link (it’s not my yesterday’s application but is similar to that) http://samples.faratasystems.com/porfolio/PortfolioRpcDemo.html Right-click on the application to see the source code.
It should be up and running within seconds. By the way, this entire application including quote generation (random numbers by a POJO), charts, RSS read and links to Yahoo financial news is less than 300 lines of code.
Adobe or Microsoft? The next question is, who is going to take a lead in the RIA area: Adobe or Microsoft? Let’s talk about penetration of new software. Do you know which OS I am using at work? Windows 2000 professional. Let me check my calendar...Yep, it's 2006. There is no other software in the world that has such a high penetration rate as Flash Player. As per Adobe within a year something like 80% of people upgrade Flash Player to newer version (the numbers might be slightly off). Within three months 50% of the users will switch to Flash Player 9. Do you know which JRE version is being used for most of the applications at my current client's site? You got it, 1.4.2. It's been only two years after release of Java 1.5...
I bet on Flash GUI talking to Java on the server. Today you can create Flash applications using Adobe Flex,plain ActionScript coding or Open Laszlo. Next year, Adobe Apollo will let you create full featured desktop applications that integrate HTML, Flash, JavaScript and Acrobat with full access to your file system.
Competition: Microsoft WPF/E and C# combo. On the side note, Java Swing beats C# on the GUI side. My friend is working for a company that has decided to replace their
Swing GUI with C# in their financial trading application. They can't
get the same performance they had before... It won't be easy for Microsoft to catch up with Adobe , but hey, it's Microsoft. Gotta respect the big guy.
AJAX won’t become a mainstream on the business applications landscape. It’ll find its limited use in consumer facing applications like Amazon, Yahoo, Google and major online retailers.
A happy Java ending I love Java...on the server side where it shines. Well, there is one more area for Java: mobile devices. More and more people believe that their cell phones are not just telephones that should be used for dialing phone numbers, but also cook breakfast in the morning. Java is a leader in the mobile space, and I do not see any danger for Java there. Flash Lite is way too young, and is making its first baby steps at this moment.
About Yakov Fain Yakov Fain is a Managing Director of Farata Systems, consulting, training and product company. He has authored several Java books, dozens of technical articles. SYS-CON Books released his latest co-authored book , Rich Internet Applications with Adobe Flex and Java: Secrets of the Masters in Spring 2007. Sun Microsystems has nominated and awarded Yakov with the title Java Champion. He leads the Princeton Java Users Group. He is an Adobe Certified Flex Instructor. Currently Yakov works on the book for O'Reilly "Enterprise Application Development with Flex". He twits at twitter.com/yfain.
I'm really sorry to hear that my credibility with you have evaporated because the '5 seconds' install did not work for you, and because I decided to use anything in addition to Java. Usually Flash express install is pretty quick, but hey, it's software.
You other comments on Flash are applicable to previous version of Flex/ActionScript. But I'm talking here about Flex 2, ActionScript 3.0, Eclipse-based IDE, and Flash Player 9, which is about 10 times faster that Flash Player 8.
As to FUD, I'm the last person to spread FUD about Java, which I like on the server side. Swing is also very powerful framework, bur overly complicated. You mentioned high rates, but it still cheaper to hire an expensive Flex consultant for a month than equally expensive Swing guy for two months. In my modest estimates, the productivity doubles in Flex comparing to Swing.
This is not a change just for a change. For example, I'd never suggest AJAX for business application, which seems to be a lot more fashionable thingy than Flex. I'm not jumping to the Ruby camp, which is another popular trend. But after spending 25 years developing software, I have a nose for the software with greater potential. This is not to say that I do not see the potential in Ruby. Three years from now it may be big. But as of today, Adobe Flex 2 and upcoming Apollo is the only game in town, when it comes to RIA development.
#4
m commented on 13 Sep 2006
I believe that Yakov's credibility with me evaporated when he claimed just '5 seconds' to be installed and running the demo. The installation requires a browser restart which can take longer than that in itself. Furthermore, Flash installations fail all the time. Several times in recent months I have had to completely uninstall and reinstall browsers in order to get the Flash install to actually work.
I'm getting pretty sick of the myth that Flash applications 'just work'. They mysteriously hang and mis-display elements all the time. My kids play lots of on-line games and CD-deployed games that are written in Flash and we always seem to be hopping from browser to browser and even between operating systems trying to get a combination that works with some particular flash app. How is this better than Java?
Flash is pretty easy to create simple apps with, but anything sophisticated seems (imho) to get bogged down and kludgy. The code quickly becomes a mess to maintain and the UIs are so cartoonish so often. I realize that the latter are symptomatic of the skills of the developers, but hey - maybe that is the point - by the time a Flash developer has the skill to do a decent sophisticated app, doesn't he charge just as much as the skilled Java developer?
And the size of flash apps does bloom with the sophistication of the app quite a bit, just like java. And finally, why is it okay to have to download and install the flash runtime before you are able to run a flash app but the need to download and install a java runtime is somehow held against Java?
The fact is, the percentage of systems that already have Java installed on them is growing and growing. All Macs have it. Nearly every new Linux system and lately the vast majority of new Windows machines already have it. And if you don't it is a pretty painless download & install experience to get it.
Fain completely ignores the growing number of java desktop applications based on the Eclipse/OSGi platform. Convenient oversite.
The comment that Java developers and advocates are going to argue here because "Java Swing puts bread on their tables. They do not want changes. They do not want to learn another language or tool." is so weak. One can easily turn that around that numerous advocates of alternatives (Flash, etc) are casting FUD about Java because they want to get their fingers on the same economic pie. So back off on the holier-than-thou attitude.
This isn't about fear of change (most developers have no fear about learning new technology, including languages) - this is about whether the change makes sense. Developers do have a fear of wasting time learning technologies that don't add new value. For the vast majority of it solutions out there, Java does make sense. Not all. But advocating for change simply for change's sake - especially when you are ignoring established solutions for the same problems - is wasteful and intellectually dishonest.
Change to solve new problems or old ones in a better way is good. Change just for change's sake may or may not be good.
I took your challenge, went to the faratasystems.com site, got the message that I needed flash player 9, and it failed. The flash installer told me I needed to shut down Firefox.
Admittedly, this would have happened with the Java runtime as well, but it surely wasn't "seconds" later with Flash 9.
As you may or may not know, Java SE 6 also includes a web toolkit to give users a similar experience. Sun also has excellent numbers showing that java.com (introduced only a couple of years ago) has dramatically increased the number of systems that are getting the JRE on them.
Add to that new ways of building Swing apps that are familiar to the web developers, and you can't simply say Swing needs a major rewrite. It's evolving along with the rest of the rich client development world.
#2
n d commented on 8 Sep 2006
The readers of this respected online forum are actively participating in this discussion and, as usual they try to protect their ten year old pet called Java. Some say that Java is improving on the desktop and has good opportunities there. The reason is simple and prosaic: Java Swing puts bread on their tables. They do not want changes. They do not want to learn another language or tool. They can do everything with Java Swing.
#1
n d commented on 8 Sep 2006
The readers of this respected online forum are actively participating in this discussion and, as usual they try to protect their ten year old pet called Java. Some say that Java is improving on the desktop and has good opportunities there. The reason is simple and prosaic: Java Swing puts bread on their tables. They do not want changes. They do not want to learn another language or tool. They can do everything with Java Swing.
Yakov Fain wrote: Dear m,
I'm really sorry to hear that my credibility with you have evaporated because the '5 seconds' install did not work for you, and because I decided to use anything in addition to Java. Usually Flash express install is pretty quick, but hey, it's software.
You other comments on Flash are applicable to previous version of Flex/ActionScript. But I'm talking here about Flex 2, ActionScript 3.0, Eclipse-based IDE, and Flash Player 9, which is about 10 times faster that Flash Player 8.
As to FUD, I'm the last person to spread FUD about Java, which I like on the server side. Swing is also very powerful framework, bur overly complicated. You mentioned high rates, but it still cheaper to hire an expensive Flex consultant for a month than equally expensive Swing guy for two months. In my modest estimates, the productivity doubles in Flex comparing to Swing.
This is not a change ju...
m wrote: I believe that Yakov's credibility with me evaporated when he claimed just '5 seconds' to be installed and running the demo. The installation requires a browser restart which can take longer than that in itself. Furthermore, Flash installations fail all the time. Several times in recent months I have had to completely uninstall and reinstall browsers in order to get the Flash install to actually work.
I'm getting pretty sick of the myth that Flash applications 'just work'. They mysteriously hang and mis-display elements all the time. My kids play lots of on-line games and CD-deployed games that are written in Flash and we always seem to be hopping from browser to browser and even between operating systems trying to get a combination that works with some particular flash app. How is this better than Java?
Flash is pretty easy to create simple apps with, but anything sophistica...
Matt Ingenthron wrote: I took your challenge, went to the faratasystems.com site, got the message that I needed flash player 9, and it failed. The flash installer told me I needed to shut down Firefox.
Admittedly, this would have happened with the Java runtime as well, but it surely wasn't "seconds" later with Flash 9.
As you may or may not know, Java SE 6 also includes a web toolkit to give users a similar experience. Sun also has excellent numbers showing that java.com (introduced only a couple of years ago) has dramatically increased the number of systems that are getting the JRE on them.
Add to that new ways of building Swing apps that are familiar to the web developers, and you can't simply say Swing needs a major rewrite. It's evolving along with the rest of the rich client development world.
n d wrote: The readers of this respected online forum are actively participating in this discussion and, as usual they try to protect their ten year old pet called Java. Some say that Java is improving on the desktop and has good opportunities there. The reason is simple and prosaic: Java Swing puts bread on their tables. They do not want changes. They do not want to learn another language or tool. They can do everything with Java Swing.
n d wrote: The readers of this respected online forum are actively participating in this discussion and, as usual they try to protect their ten year old pet called Java. Some say that Java is improving on the desktop and has good opportunities there. The reason is simple and prosaic: Java Swing puts bread on their tables. They do not want changes. They do not want to learn another language or tool. They can do everything with Java Swing.
SYS-CON Events announced today that Yahoo!, a leading global Internet brand and one of the most trafficked Internet destinations worldwide, was named "Platinum Sponsor" of SYS-CON's 4th International Cloud Computing Conference & Expo (www.CloudComputingExpo.com), which will take ...
Yahoo! is investing significantly in Cloud Computing to support the company's global applications and audience of more than 500 million users. Yahoo!'s cloud confronts technical challenges at an almost unprecedented scale - requiring tens of petabytes of storage, tens of thousand...
With the spoils of the BEA acquisition now fully baked into the mix -- and with anticipation for what the pending Sun Microsystems buy brings -- Oracle is well on its way to obviating the middleware moniker. Perhaps we should call it "anyware."
How many companies, large and small, do you know that rely on the Internet? Some people may have never heard of the term "Cloud Computing". It refers to "a computation or storage offered as a service supported by a pool of distributed computing resources, also known as utility co...
Citrix has released a public AMI ( Amazon Machine Image ) in the EC2 Cloud recently as part of the C3 Lab initiative with Amazon Web Services. XenApp Fundamentals is the new name for Access Essentials which is an ideal solution for SMB's looking for a simple way to administer and...
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SYS-CON Events announced today that Yahoo!, a leading global Internet brand and one of the most trafficked Internet destinations worldwide, was named "Platinum Sponsor" of SYS-CON's 4th International Cloud Computing Conference & Expo (www.CloudComputingExpo.com), which will take ...
Yahoo! is investing significantly in Cloud Computing to support the company's global applications and audience of more than 500 million users. Yahoo!'s cloud confronts technical challenges at an almost unprecedented scale - requiring tens of petabytes of storage, tens of thousand...
With the spoils of the BEA acquisition now fully baked into the mix -- and with anticipation for what the pending Sun Microsystems buy brings -- Oracle is well on its way to obviating the middleware moniker. Perhaps we should call it "anyware."
How many companies, large and small, do you know that rely on the Internet? Some people may have never heard of the term "Cloud Computing". It refers to "a computation or storage offered as a service supported by a pool of distributed computing resources, also known as utility co...
Citrix has released a public AMI ( Amazon Machine Image ) in the EC2 Cloud recently as part of the C3 Lab initiative with Amazon Web Services. XenApp Fundamentals is the new name for Access Essentials which is an ideal solution for SMB's looking for a simple way to administer and...
