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Sun: MS Delay Threatens Java Extinction
Sun: MS Delay Threatens Java Extinction

(January 30, 2003) - Every day that Microsoft delays including Java in the latest version of Windows is critical, said Sun, in a response to Microsoft's appeal to a preliminary injunction. Sun said Java is damaged each day the injunction is not imposed because Microsoft's anticompetitive acts tilt the market toward the .NET framework. Implementation of the federal judge's order is necessary to prevent Java's extinction, Sun argued in its court filing. Sun also maintains that the court's 120-day deadline should be ample time for Microsoft to include the Java runtime environment in its Windows operating system and Internet Explorer browser.

Accusing Microsoft of unlawfully distributing outdated Java versions that are Windows-incompatible, Sun is suing the software giant for $1 billion. Last week, a federal judge ordered Microsoft to include updated versions of Java in Windows operating systems until the litigation is resolved. Appealing the injunction, Microsoft called Judge Motz's order "extreme and unprecedented," and argued that Sun faces no "imminent irreparable harm" that should require Microsoft to help a competitor.

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Whoever wins the case wether Ms or Sun may have an impact on the way desktop computing goes on for some time but one thing stands out clear MS and Sun are profit making organisations. The end of the matter is that one wants to make more than the other. I beleive they should stop all this noise about anti-competitive practices and concentrate on giving the world better products.

We have several applications already deployed on windows using Java. To make this work we have had to test and certify on specific versions of Java and versions of 3rd Party jars.

Our experience is that the newer releases of the JRE and 3rd party jars frequently provide little backwards compatability. Usually we have to obtainn a newer version of a 3rd Party Jar and perform some re-development to move a version of the JRE forward. Due to this we have established a platform which includes a specific version of the SUN JRE and 3rd party jars.

I'm convinced that others have experienced this as well.

If Microsoft is forced to ship the SUN JRE, it will most likely not be the one that I have currently certified. I'm convinced that my already deployed applications will be broken and that my support costs will be high to fix the issue on each user workstation.

I think that this will hurt Java. Giving it a very bad reputation. Actually putting Java into windows may kill Java.

David

I know that this is all about market
share and the best way to get it.
MS is doing what they have to do, Sun
is doing what they feel they need to.

In reality it's the architects, developers and the user community that
decides if something works or not.

I believe most of the above three are
satisfied with J2EE to believe that it works and can be implemented very quickly.

We have buy in from big vendors like IBM, HP and others not to mention the
phone mfg.

There will be enough Java around to make a good living as well as a bit of .Net.

It's the services that each provides and how robust they can be that'll decide more than anything how long a technology will be around. Look at Cobol, it works great for what it does and it's still being written.

.Net/C# for Windows and J2EE/Java for
everything else! :-)

This is not just a question of damaged reputations. Remember the hundreds of additional lawsuits by many smaller innovators that follow this one. Microsoft manipulates its OS and its bundles to damage the earnings of its competitors. $1 billion may be Sun's rightful compensation, but imo it should be 100x that to compensate for the damage done to the rest of the industry!

What I see hear is not so much an issue of whether or not Java should be mandatorily bundled with Windows, but whether Microsoft has damaged Java's repuation by illegally bundling outdated Java runtimes that would not be compatible with Windows. By doing this, Microsoft is creating the image that Java doesn't work. Yet another marketing ploy by Microsoft to destroy credibility of a competitor.

If you really want to punish Microsoft of this anti-competitive behavior, (and that is what it is)force them to re-call all systems with the faulty Java runtimes and install the correct ones. Do not allow them to simply issue a patch to remove it. All this does, is re-inforce the view that Java does not work, which they would love to do. Put the onus on MS to correct the problem they created in such a way that it emphasizes their failure and does reinforce a negative view of Java.

The J2EE vs .NET battle is happening on the server side. Whether Microsoft includes a VM in their Windows desktop OS is irrelevant. Even if it were there, no sane Java developer would build a dependency on Microsoft's VM into their product. I am using Java applications on Windows now, with Sun's JRE. And I am building J2EE applications on the server that are OS-independent. Threat to Java? Hogwash. I suppose Sun wants to paint a picture of damage in order to win court battles. But the damage is minor. It is just a PR campaign.

The actions of companies like MS make you think greed is everywhere in America. It's not. It's time we stopped allowing the slow (witted?) court system from deciding these issues. Choose a linux/unix operating system and refuse to use anything with a MS label.

I am not sure why this goverment is letting M$ getting away with bloddy murder.

Market penetration of 75% or greater is considered a monopoly. In the case of the desktop, MS has 96%. The simple analogy is rail roads, farmers, miners, and steel industry.

In the case of MS, they are the railroads, in that vien, they cannot compete with fairness in the farming business (desktop apps) as long as they own the railroads. Judges have the responsibility to force MS to obey the law. Either get ride of the anti-trust laws, or have ms follow the law.
In my opinion and as such that of several courts and different state's attorney generals, they are mis-using their desktop monopoly in an effort to dominate additional business sectors.
Wordprocessing, spreadsheet, browser, network, and everything else next. Judge Jackson had the remedy, two different companies. 1 o/s and 1 apps oriented.

Java is used on the internet. So it would be logical that there is Java support on the platform. No look at it from the beginning. MS started to have Java licensed by Sun, so MS should have complied to the Java standards. Instead they fork it into their own version, not being compatible with the standard.
MS did so obviously with the intention to kill Java in the long run.
In fact this verdict comes too late for MS with their unfair behaviour. If you have such a large share of the market, and earn so much money, you should become satisfied. If you want to have it all, at a certain moment it will turn against you. People do not want to be dictated by monopolists. This is what you see that is starting to happen. More and more organisations and countries are moving into Linux, since they see lots of money to be saved by doing so.

I think Sun has brought this situation on themselves by forcing Microsoft out of Java. Maybe they felt they had to at some point but now they also have to face the consequences. The grass-roots reaction from people beeing forced by some judge to have Java on their computers may not be what Sun has hoped. Just download this "Anti-Java button", press it, and all that Java crap will immediately be removed from your computer.

I think Sun is unintentionally spreading ant-Java FUD with this statement. Although they were trying to persuade a court with this argument, they should have known that it would be repeated in the press. What do they suppose the effect will be when some executive IT manager type, who doesn't know Java from JavaScript, reads phrases like "Java's extinction" and "tilt the market toward the .NET framework."? I can just hear it now, in some glass-walled conference room: "We don't want to use Java, it's on the verge of extinction! Everyone's moving to the .NET framework!"

I am an avid proponent of Java technology and a java Architect and System Engineer for a leading telecommunications provider. I believe strongly that J2EE and Java are far superior to the .NET platform BUT... the idea that we should have to force Microsoft to distribute a competing product seems absurd to me. The fact that Microsoft considers Java to be such a fierce cometitor as to be fighting so hard against us is encouraging in fact. One has to wonder if there ever was a .NET framework and SDK made available by Microsoft for UNix/Solaris (yes I know this will likely never happen), if Sun would be happy about being forced by law to distribute the .NET platform along with it's Solaris OS?

IMO it's obvious that


Your Feedback
Ayo Babs wrote: Whoever wins the case wether Ms or Sun may have an impact on the way desktop computing goes on for some time but one thing stands out clear MS and Sun are profit making organisations. The end of the matter is that one wants to make more than the other. I beleive they should stop all this noise about anti-competitive practices and concentrate on giving the world better products.
David Marshall wrote: We have several applications already deployed on windows using Java. To make this work we have had to test and certify on specific versions of Java and versions of 3rd Party jars. Our experience is that the newer releases of the JRE and 3rd party jars frequently provide little backwards compatability. Usually we have to obtainn a newer version of a 3rd Party Jar and perform some re-development to move a version of the JRE forward. Due to this we have established a platform which includes a specific version of the SUN JRE and 3rd party jars. I'm convinced that others have experienced this as well. If Microsoft is forced to ship the SUN JRE, it will most likely not be the one that I have currently certified. I'm convinced that my already deployed applications will be broken and that my support costs will be high to fix the issue on each user workstation. I think that th...
Bill wrote: I know that this is all about market share and the best way to get it. MS is doing what they have to do, Sun is doing what they feel they need to. In reality it's the architects, developers and the user community that decides if something works or not. I believe most of the above three are satisfied with J2EE to believe that it works and can be implemented very quickly. We have buy in from big vendors like IBM, HP and others not to mention the phone mfg. There will be enough Java around to make a good living as well as a bit of .Net. It's the services that each provides and how robust they can be that'll decide more than anything how long a technology will be around. Look at Cobol, it works great for what it does and it's still being written. .Net/C# for Windows and J2EE/Java for everything else! :-)
Doug wrote: This is not just a question of damaged reputations. Remember the hundreds of additional lawsuits by many smaller innovators that follow this one. Microsoft manipulates its OS and its bundles to damage the earnings of its competitors. $1 billion may be Sun's rightful compensation, but imo it should be 100x that to compensate for the damage done to the rest of the industry!
Karl wrote: What I see hear is not so much an issue of whether or not Java should be mandatorily bundled with Windows, but whether Microsoft has damaged Java's repuation by illegally bundling outdated Java runtimes that would not be compatible with Windows. By doing this, Microsoft is creating the image that Java doesn't work. Yet another marketing ploy by Microsoft to destroy credibility of a competitor. If you really want to punish Microsoft of this anti-competitive behavior, (and that is what it is)force them to re-call all systems with the faulty Java runtimes and install the correct ones. Do not allow them to simply issue a patch to remove it. All this does, is re-inforce the view that Java does not work, which they would love to do. Put the onus on MS to correct the problem they created in such a way that it emphasizes their failure and does reinforce a negative view of Java.
Richard wrote: The J2EE vs .NET battle is happening on the server side. Whether Microsoft includes a VM in their Windows desktop OS is irrelevant. Even if it were there, no sane Java developer would build a dependency on Microsoft's VM into their product. I am using Java applications on Windows now, with Sun's JRE. And I am building J2EE applications on the server that are OS-independent. Threat to Java? Hogwash. I suppose Sun wants to paint a picture of damage in order to win court battles. But the damage is minor. It is just a PR campaign.
doug wrote: The actions of companies like MS make you think greed is everywhere in America. It's not. It's time we stopped allowing the slow (witted?) court system from deciding these issues. Choose a linux/unix operating system and refuse to use anything with a MS label.
tina wrote: I am not sure why this goverment is letting M$ getting away with bloddy murder.
Ken MacPherson wrote: Market penetration of 75% or greater is considered a monopoly. In the case of the desktop, MS has 96%. The simple analogy is rail roads, farmers, miners, and steel industry. In the case of MS, they are the railroads, in that vien, they cannot compete with fairness in the farming business (desktop apps) as long as they own the railroads. Judges have the responsibility to force MS to obey the law. Either get ride of the anti-trust laws, or have ms follow the law. In my opinion and as such that of several courts and different state's attorney generals, they are mis-using their desktop monopoly in an effort to dominate additional business sectors. Wordprocessing, spreadsheet, browser, network, and everything else next. Judge Jackson had the remedy, two different companies. 1 o/s and 1 apps oriented.
Cesare M wrote: Java is used on the internet. So it would be logical that there is Java support on the platform. No look at it from the beginning. MS started to have Java licensed by Sun, so MS should have complied to the Java standards. Instead they fork it into their own version, not being compatible with the standard. MS did so obviously with the intention to kill Java in the long run. In fact this verdict comes too late for MS with their unfair behaviour. If you have such a large share of the market, and earn so much money, you should become satisfied. If you want to have it all, at a certain moment it will turn against you. People do not want to be dictated by monopolists. This is what you see that is starting to happen. More and more organisations and countries are moving into Linux, since they see lots of money to be saved by doing so.
Ulrika J wrote: I think Sun has brought this situation on themselves by forcing Microsoft out of Java. Maybe they felt they had to at some point but now they also have to face the consequences. The grass-roots reaction from people beeing forced by some judge to have Java on their computers may not be what Sun has hoped. Just download this "Anti-Java button", press it, and all that Java crap will immediately be removed from your computer.
Dave Glasser wrote: I think Sun is unintentionally spreading ant-Java FUD with this statement. Although they were trying to persuade a court with this argument, they should have known that it would be repeated in the press. What do they suppose the effect will be when some executive IT manager type, who doesn't know Java from JavaScript, reads phrases like "Java's extinction" and "tilt the market toward the .NET framework."? I can just hear it now, in some glass-walled conference room: "We don't want to use Java, it's on the verge of extinction! Everyone's moving to the .NET framework!"
Jim Mors wrote: I am an avid proponent of Java technology and a java Architect and System Engineer for a leading telecommunications provider. I believe strongly that J2EE and Java are far superior to the .NET platform BUT... the idea that we should have to force Microsoft to distribute a competing product seems absurd to me. The fact that Microsoft considers Java to be such a fierce cometitor as to be fighting so hard against us is encouraging in fact. One has to wonder if there ever was a .NET framework and SDK made available by Microsoft for UNix/Solaris (yes I know this will likely never happen), if Sun would be happy about being forced by law to distribute the .NET platform along with it's Solaris OS?
IUnknown wrote: IMO it's obvious that
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