Richard Davies wrote: The UK has a good crop of technology pioneers in cloud computing - for example ElasticHosts, FlexiScale, Flexiant, OnApp - and also some strong government initiatives such as G-Cloud.
We will have to see whether this kind of technical leadership converts into swift mass-market adoption or not.
In the Java community you have two schools of thought: the zealots, if you will, who feel that pure Java is worth the attempt, and the compromisers, who feel it's more important to use Java no matter what.
Swing against SWT is a good example of this: SWT is a compromise, where native GUI elements are used to further Java, and Swing is the pure Java element. The GUI is hardly the only battle fought by these two "camps." Think of those who advocate Java-to-native compilation (or oppose it), or those who want Java to have features used by C#, like attributes and autoboxing (and those who don't want those features). They're similar issues, fought for and over with the passion normally reserved for raw survival.
I find myself on the zealots' side, but I have to confess that I understand those who do not. Perhaps the zealots - the "pure Java" camp - are throwing the dice, hoping Java is strong enough right now to survive and win. Throwing the dice means you might win...and you might lose - and Java might become irrelevant. Compromising might subvert the original intent, but also ensure the survival of the technology and the benefits it has brought and continues to bring.
It could be that the time is ripening for open source Java, with the commits being validated by Sun to prevent wild strains in a methodology similar to that followed by Linux. Java is currently burdened by its appearance as both a product (see the "Java Desktop," for example) and a commodity (witness the various add-ons, such as SWT and JGoodies, which purport to make "core Java" better or easier or, if you like, "faster"). The add-on products aren't bad, per se, but with the confusion over Java's core role, they fracture the foundation for the community. We need to see Java as a commodity, as something that everyone can use, such that Sun is itself a controlling interest of an available technology - not the controlling interest of a product that everyone else is allowed to use, because the allowance itself grants value. It's either valuable or it's not. I say it is - but the longer it's shared grudgingly, the less valuable it appears.
What I would like to see is a viable future strategy. I'm willing to accept that SWT fixed some issues present in an older version of the JRE, and the native OS look and feel is an advantage for those who wish it. (I personally switch OSes too often to want a native look and feel. I want my applications to work the same regardless of OS.) That said, I think that Swing has caught up to SWT in many ways and, in other ways, I think it will catch up if it's important enough, and eventually you'll see SWT as I do: as a split in Java, in what could be a unified front. It's important to me that Java has a plan for handling situations like this, where there's a viability in "pure Java" that needs to be preserved, but an "impure Java" possibility needs to be addressed.
I wish I could see the future and tell you which camp was better for Java: the one that advocates a "pure vision," despite being flawed in perceptible ways, or the one that advocates the surrender of a fight that, in their opinion, not only isn't winnable, but has already been lost. The optimist in me says that the former view is better, that flaws can be corrected with time...but the existence of the latter worries me, unless steps are taken to use the strengths of all involved.
About Joseph Ottinger I am a software evangelist for GigaSpaces technologies, as well as a writer and musician. I've been the editor-in-chief of Java Developer's Journal and TheServerSide.
GigaSpaces Technologies is a leading provider of a new generation of application platforms for Java and .Net environments that offer an alternative to traditional application-servers. The company's eXtreme Application Platform (XAP) is a high-end application server, designed to meet the most demanding business requirements in a cost-effective manner. It is the only product that provides a complete middleware solution on a single, scalable platform. XAP is trusted by Fortune 100 companies, which leverage it as a strategic solution that enhances efficiency and agility across the IT organization.
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#8
Paul Singleton commented on 13 Feb 2004
I think Joseph is wrong to characterise as "compromisers" those "who feel it''s more important to use Java": was "engineers" the word you sought? What is Java, if not a better way to build software for the real world? The zealots who insist we shouldn''t adopt Java without adopting the principle of a platform independent GUI are probably the same guys who go to Star Trek conventions to talk Klingon: I''m sure it''s a fulfilling, self-consistent fantasy world but...
Swing was a misconceived investment, and you can''t correct this by making it compulsory :-)
That it has PLAFs seems to undermine the "one (new) GUI! (ours)" manifesto.
There is a market out there for software which conforms closely to well-established looks-and-feels, which browses huge lists and trees no more slowly than native widgets do, and which passes for native (fools the users). If Swing did this better that SWT we''d use it.
I think it is the *zealots* who have hijacked Java; their mission ("with this we shall change the world!") is not just some kinda heroic folly, but a betrayal of the grade A engineering vision and judgement of those who made Java such a fine tool.
#7
Serge Bureau commented on 13 Feb 2004
Mr Ottinger,
That is your problem you never realised I care.
My tone will change when JDJ changes. But there was a few interesting technical articles in this number (like the one on NIO for example) so I will take a look but it is issue by issue as I am far from convinced by your new look.
Only the content interest me. And stupidity like "middleware is dead" is not impressive.
And do not defend yourself with reality about SWT and stuff, taking side is acknowledging reality, what is suppose to be your point ?
#6
Robert ENyedi commented on 13 Feb 2004
I''m using Eclipse both on Windows XP and Linux with KDE. I don''t think Eclipse is beautiful, neither that SWT has a nice and os conforming LAF.
Take a look at Netbeans (especially the recent 3.6 beta) to see a really beautiful user interface.
Look and feel desktop integration. Are you kidding? What should I consider good look and feel desktop integration? The fact that a basic pushbutton doesn''t conform to the Windows XP''s current theme and nor do the combos, radios, checkboxes?
I found the standard Swing Windows and GTK PLAFs much more convincing than any SWT native widget. Try to run the SwingSet2 demo with these PLAFs to see my point. Btw did you know that the Windows PLAF dynamically changes as does the system''s theme?
PS. I''m using Eclipse because of it''s powerful features regarding productivity. The UI just sucks. And don''t forget that IDEA is the reference. It''s just that it isn''t free.
#5
Joseph Ottinger commented on 13 Feb 2004
Why, Serge, I didn''t know you cared. Actually, I *do* see both sides - and I''m unafraid to admit that. I''m sorry you want to watch a specific dance instead of what''s real, but it certainly fits the tone you''ve always used when discussing JDJ. :)
#4
Serge Bureau commented on 13 Feb 2004
Another politically correct article with no guts.
Gee I am on both sides, pathetic.
SWT is a big mistake and useless. Simple
#3
Joseph Ottinger commented on 9 Feb 2004
Have you seen the 1.5 beta? Check out the SwingSet2 demo, and use the Windows look and feel.
#2
Denis commented on 9 Feb 2004
What are you talking about - you have to cross OS boundaries sooner or later anyway. It doesn''t contradict Javas purity. That''s how Java platform works. Recall AWT - it was native too but Sun did not have any problems with it, so what''s wrong with SWT? I/O is native too so what?
If you fiddle with multiple OSs, you cannot expect window managers to look alike, so why do you want Java apps to look the same on different platforms? Do not forget that the reason for having PLAFs in Swing was to make users feel comfortable with Java apps by switching to their "local" LAF. Well, thats what Javasoft guys said.
Whatever fellows in Sun think, there isn''t ANY professionally looking Java applications that employ Swing. Sorry to break it to you, but can''t you see it yourself - that business with Swing citations at Swing Connection is laughable. Can you imagine Microsoft making a blog with links to apps using, say, MFC on Windows platform? Apparently, not - there are tons of those, so why bother at all. But Sun gives us links to 50-100 Swing apps written over a past decade (well, almost) and fails to realize that it''s ludicrous.
Some detest Dunkin'' Donuts coffee and hate the liquid they call coffee in McDonalds. On the other hand, Starbucks coffee is better and it''s real. But who cares? Vast majority adores surrogate coffee. The problem is that we do not care about quality in America. They do look trendy in Europe, but not in the States. People in Sun and many of their supporters just do not have taste to realize that Swing is ugly and SWT is nice because underlying Win2K/XP API (or Motif) are well DESIGNED from esthetical point of view. Sun Swing team fellas with stains of cheap coffee on their tee shirts just cannot understand why they should abandon Swing. They really are proud of what they are doing. Good for them, but maybe they should visit Starbucks place once and buy themselves a cup of cappuccino with two extra shots of espresso.
Eclipse is a perfect example. I used it on wintel platforms for a couple of years and then decided to setup a linux/gnome box at home. I was not particularly happy to see a different eclipse. I felt even more uneasy when after upgrading gtk eclipse morphed again.
Paul Singleton wrote: I think Joseph is wrong to characterise as "compromisers" those "who feel it''s more important to use Java": was "engineers" the word you sought? What is Java, if not a better way to build software for the real world? The zealots who insist we shouldn''t adopt Java without adopting the principle of a platform independent GUI are probably the same guys who go to Star Trek conventions to talk Klingon: I''m sure it''s a fulfilling, self-consistent fantasy world but...
Swing was a misconceived investment, and you can''t correct this by making it compulsory :-)
That it has PLAFs seems to undermine the "one (new) GUI! (ours)" manifesto.
There is a market out there for software which conforms closely to well-established looks-and-feels, which browses huge lists and trees no more slowly than native widgets do, and which passes for native (fools the users). If Swing did this better that...
Serge Bureau wrote: Mr Ottinger,
That is your problem you never realised I care.
My tone will change when JDJ changes. But there was a few interesting technical articles in this number (like the one on NIO for example) so I will take a look but it is issue by issue as I am far from convinced by your new look.
Only the content interest me. And stupidity like "middleware is dead" is not impressive.
And do not defend yourself with reality about SWT and stuff, taking side is acknowledging reality, what is suppose to be your point ?
Robert ENyedi wrote: I''m using Eclipse both on Windows XP and Linux with KDE. I don''t think Eclipse is beautiful, neither that SWT has a nice and os conforming LAF.
Take a look at Netbeans (especially the recent 3.6 beta) to see a really beautiful user interface.
Look and feel desktop integration. Are you kidding? What should I consider good look and feel desktop integration? The fact that a basic pushbutton doesn''t conform to the Windows XP''s current theme and nor do the combos, radios, checkboxes?
I found the standard Swing Windows and GTK PLAFs much more convincing than any SWT native widget. Try to run the SwingSet2 demo with these PLAFs to see my point. Btw did you know that the Windows PLAF dynamically changes as does the system''s theme?
PS. I''m using Eclipse because of it''s powerful features regarding productivity. The UI just sucks. And don''t forget that IDEA is the reference. It'...
Joseph Ottinger wrote: Why, Serge, I didn''t know you cared. Actually, I *do* see both sides - and I''m unafraid to admit that. I''m sorry you want to watch a specific dance instead of what''s real, but it certainly fits the tone you''ve always used when discussing JDJ. :)
Denis wrote: What are you talking about - you have to cross OS boundaries sooner or later anyway. It doesn''t contradict Javas purity. That''s how Java platform works. Recall AWT - it was native too but Sun did not have any problems with it, so what''s wrong with SWT? I/O is native too so what?
If you fiddle with multiple OSs, you cannot expect window managers to look alike, so why do you want Java apps to look the same on different platforms? Do not forget that the reason for having PLAFs in Swing was to make users feel comfortable with Java apps by switching to their "local" LAF. Well, thats what Javasoft guys said.
Whatever fellows in Sun think, there isn''t ANY professionally looking Java applications that employ Swing. Sorry to break it to you, but can''t you see it yourself - that business with Swing citations at Swing Connection is laughable. Can you imagine Microsoft making a blog wi...
David wrote: Eclipse is a perfect example. I used it on wintel platforms for a couple of years and then decided to setup a linux/gnome box at home. I was not particularly happy to see a different eclipse. I felt even more uneasy when after upgrading gtk eclipse morphed again.
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Swisscom, the Swiss telecom, is going into the cloud business.
Its subsidiary Swisscom IT Services AG has signed up with Red Hat as a Certified Cloud Provider and launched a public cloud Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS) cloud targeting enterprise-class customers primarily in ...
Apache Deltacloud, the Red Hat-contributed ReSTful API that abstracts differences between clouds so services on any cloud can be managed – provided of course there’s a driver – has graduated from the Apache Foundation’s incubator and is now a full-fledged Top-Level Project (TLP)....
In a surprise move on Tuesday, January 10, Oracle wheeled out its Big Data Appliance.
That’s the one it said in October would be ready sometime in the first half. Only nobody believed it meant early in the first half. Heck, it’s not even clear anybody thought Oracle could make ...
Rackspace Hosting, the service leader in cloud computing, on Thursday announced its acquisition of SharePoint911, an industry leader in SharePoint consulting, training, and "JumpStart" services within SharePoint. The unification of both companies provides capabilities to deliver ...
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